Curse

Red · Dec 31, 2007, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Operative: Thank you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaythen Tyradel

Sure it helps, but in the end did it help you learn?

On a side note, I still don't see how more access to towns means more money for ANET. Elaborate a bit more on how this will add more sales.

A point made about the exploit was that a player could create a new char, go to some of the buried treasure spots. Re-roll. Re-farm.

Second concern, low level area PVP arenas already face the issue of low level players with high end skills and armor.

Much better reply. My compliments. Anyway, here we go.

-) Sure it helps, but in the end did it help you learn?
Did we learn? What? Is Guild Wars a course, that we should be expected to learn something? Again... let us choose how to enjoy the game. Unlike Cliff's Notes, there is no moral imperative to play all the way through a campaign to reach DoA. Some people just want to bloody have a paragon at DoA; and unlike someone who cheats their way through English class, no one is going to think less of the paragon because they didn't go through Jennur's Horde.

-) Elaborate a bit more on how this will add more sales.
More revenue is an important part of my argument. I believe that, quite simply, more people will want to play the full Guild Wars game when its so much easier for them to get into it with new PvE characters. This will encourage people who had not previously bought Nightfall, say, to go ahead and buy it when they know their guild is going to have increased activity in the high end areas.

Also, as people are encouraged to try all ten professions, they will likely need more character slots, since even a non-PvPer wou;d have at most 9 (4 Prophecies + 2 Factions + 1 Factions PreOrder + 2 Nightfall). Each new slot gives ANet $10 USD. Also, as I explained in my post, there is also an additional, though small, incentive to purchase the PvP Unlock Packs as well.

-) Buried treasure spots. Re-roll. Re-farm.
Excellent point. Things like this will need to be addressed. Maybe only allow treasure chests to be opened by characters 1 month old? That seems a fair trade-off for Fast Mapping? Just a thought, but yes; things like this will need to be cleaned up. ((edit: I made a space at the bottom of my OP to address major points in the thread. I've added Buried Treasure to it))

-) Low level area PVP arenas
It's Ascalon Arena, which as you said, is already skewed. I don't know it's worth considering at this point...

lyra_song · Dec 31, 2007, 08:42 PM // 20:42

1) Increased product life:
This suggestion essentially cuts down product life since it allows players to not have to play large sections of the gameplay. How can you even say this with a straight face, "This suggestion will make the game last longer by making it faster.". See point 2.

2)Increased activity:
This suggestion cuts down the THINGS TO DO. How can you say you can increase activity in the game, when in fact all the idea does is remove any reason for activity in large portions of the game and focus only on very small sections that not all players care about such as DOA/DEEP/UW/FOW/URGOZ.

Lets compare it to a meal. Appetizer, entree, dessert.

The appetizer is the newbie training areas. Once you reach lvl 20, the Entree of the game is the actual storyline and quests. The high end areas are "additional content" after you finish the meal, ie: dessert.

You want to add a shortcut to skip the entree and jump to the dessert? Ok thats fine, but don't tell me it makes your meal longer, because thats just not true.

3) Convergence with the PvP model:
he PvP model is about a level playing field. All things unlocked in PvP do not contribute to how far a player can get.

A UAX'ed player cannot instantly go to the Hall of heroes. He must still PLAY THE ACTUAL GAME and beat other players to get there. A UAX'ed PvP char has no special access to anything. If they want to get anywhere, they still have to play the game.

A UAX'ed PVP char is only equivalent to a LvL 20 with armor, weapons and skills.
You can reach this is prophecies by the desert, factions by Kaineng, and Nightfall by Kourna.

4) Increased Secondary sales:
This point is completely laughable. Youre running on pure speculation.

From my experience, the players I know who bought multiple slots and are REALLY hardcore into buying slots (I have 17 total myself) did it because:

-STORAGE is the primary reason ive seen
-they want an extra character of a character they already have. I have 3 rangers, my guildmates have 2-3 monks/necros, etc. They develop favorite classes and want to have multiples.

If a player never played a Paragon, and then bought a slot, ran the paragon and bought all skills via unlock pack and tomes, I would not want to play with that player.

That player would not have experienced how a paragon plays at all. This is detrimental to the player. You end up with a high level, UAS paragon with zero knowledge of how to play as one.

I dont know how to play Elementalist very well. I will admit that. I ran my elementalist.

Classes I know very well:
-Mesmer: Beat prophecies, PvP often with
-Warrior: Beat Prophecies/Faction/NF: PvP often
-Ranger: Beat Prophecies/Faction, PvP often
-Monk: Beat prophecies/faction, PvP/Farm often
-Dervish: Beat NIghtfall, EoTN
-Paragon: Beat Nightfall

==============
Negligable Effects: I love how you bring up weak arguments and tell us how they are negligable. Lets bring up proper CONs and argue against that.
==============

Cons:
1) Burnout. If a player isn't having fun playing a class from the beginning, what makes you think he'll have fun playing that class when its anywhere else? The location of the character is irrelevant if the player doesnt find it a fun class to play.
2) Destruction of basic game design principles. Make a player feel like their effort has a reward, so that they will continue to play.

Yes, you should be able to play how you want without affecting anyone negatively. I love the "let me play how i wanna play" argument, its not gonna bother anyone routine. Its a great song and dance.

But guess what? Theres less incentive to play the game if for less effort you can get the same outcome. By adding shortcuts that are optional, you are creating an emotional detriment to players who choose the "long way."

For example:
Gyala Hatchery. You can take the normal way and follow the turtles, or go ahead and kill the enemies ahead of time.

Join a group and tell them "Let's not take the easy way, lets actually follow the turtles." You'd get kicked.

It doesn't become an "option" it becomes the ONLY option.

------------------

This subject has been covered many many many many times since Factions. Try searching for "remove gates" or something.

edit:
For example : http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10217405

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Not another one of those "I don't want to repeat playing through the game because its repetitive, but i want to repeat playing the game with more characters." bullshit....

Neo Nugget · Dec 31, 2007, 08:49 PM // 20:49

wow i'm shocked at the number of /signed posts lol.

But it did add a lot more enjoyment, i have so many characters, going through it all seems really boring.
/signed

SaucE · Dec 31, 2007, 08:54 PM // 20:54

I don't know how many characters I had partially through a campaign and just gave up because I couldn't bring myself to complete the campaign again. I would love to see some form of this. I know it would make guild/alliance get togethers happen more frequently.

/signed

Jaythen Tyradel · Dec 31, 2007, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red

-) Elaborate a bit more on how this will add more sales.
More revenue is an important part of my argument. I believe that, quite simply, more people will want to play the full Guild Wars game when its so much easier for them to get into it with new PvE characters. This will encourage people who had not previously bought Nightfall, say, to go ahead and buy it when they know their guild is going to have increased activity in the high end areas.

Also, as people are encouraged to try all ten professions, they will likely need more character slots, since even a non-PvPer wou;d have at most 9 (4 Prophecies + 2 Factions + 1 Factions PreOrder + 2 Nightfall). Each new slot gives ANet $10 USD. Also, as I explained in my post, there is also an additional, though small, incentive to purchase the PvP Unlock Packs as well.

I see the point with additional skill slots being extra revenue. Very good point on that matter. I honestly hadn't considered it.
On other chapters, I guess that also comes down to a player's guild that might motivate them to buy more chapters to play with them or not. Not seeing as a strong point for selling extra chapters, but the point you raise is still valid. If players know they could work with guildies (whether new or old) at any location with their new characters/older characters it could help keep a guild going on strong and keep a player interested in tying out different professions or just simply keeping ppl playing.

Vinraith · Dec 31, 2007, 09:04 PM // 21:04

/notsigned

Disincentivize playing the game and no one will anymore, nor should they. At that point it just becomes a giant farmer's market for pixelated crap, not a game at all. If you don't want to play through the game, don't make a character.

Eviance · Dec 31, 2007, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Lyra - I have only this to say, as I could not take all of your post in full. (sorry, no offense)

I am so overly stuffed with the entree of NF and Factions - that I have no room or desire for the dessert that should have followed.

Takuna · Dec 31, 2007, 09:14 PM // 21:14

/notsigned

You say it would be better for ANet's business yet you gave no reason. Are you sure you've thought this through properly? If you make people play through the whole game, it will actually last longer. Allowing people to rush will simply make them disinterested faster.

Red · Dec 31, 2007, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

[good points with a lot of rudeness]

Aha, a real post! Thank you, and another thanks for the link. Must we be so turse, though?
However, I'm hoping for a bit more involved discussion, so a lot of that link is inapplicable here. As an example, Operative in post #10 disagrees with the OP; and here s/he agrees. I think it's safe to say that people can have different opinions on an argument depending on how it is presented, and which points are focused on. In that respect, I think this thread is a bit more fleshed-out than such threads as that link.

But, on to the real post!

-) Increased Product Life
I make the suggestion, because there are a lot of people just not playing any more, because they can't be bothered to grind through campaigns, and are a bit tired of playing the same ranger in Urgoz Warren every time the guild raids. I could name several people who are waiting for something to give them a reason to play. One friend, for example, would love to try ele in DoA... but he really really doesn't wanna grind through Nightfall's campaign to do it.

There are, then, two concerns at play here. First, whether or not some people will indeed be encouraged to play more with such a change; and secondly whether it will happen as you say, that the game will suffer from being made shorter.

The former will be addressed when I get to your point 2; but as to the latter, that it will harm the game by shortening it? Are you asserting that, if a shortcut is placed in the game, then people who would have played through and enjoyed the entire storyline will suddenly stop doing so? I dare say I disagree with you here, my lady. Those who enjoy that level of immersion and achievement will continue achieving and immersing, even if there were a fast mapping method.

Of course, running had always existed in Prophecies, yes? Some people took advantage of it, and some didn't. This is not a new concept, but rather the careful expansion of an already existing mechanic. I don't believe Prophecies suffered extensively from running, nor do I believe that the entire GW continuum will suffer from fast mapping.

-) Increased Activity
My suggestion cuts down on the requirement to complete all Things To Do. It does not take them away from people who choose to complete them. However, allow me to ask a rather direct question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyra

when in fact all the idea does is remove any reason for activity in large portions of the game and focus only on very small sections

If my idea eliminates any reason... then that means that the only reason for doing those PvE quests and missions, is for the purpose of moving to the next section of the game. You imply that people don't play through the story for enjoyment, for XP and gold, for quest completion, and so forth. Your statement implies that only one reason exists for playing PvE--to move to the next section of PvE.... and thus, my suggestion eliminates that reason.

So sorry, I think you have missed the point. I'm not suggesting we do away with these Things To Do at all; merely that ANet no longer requires them all.

Further, let's analyze your metaphor of appetizer, entree, dessert. What if someone really loved the appetizer of soup and the dessert of cherry pie, but absolutely hated the entree of meatloaf? I'm suggesting that, whenver we go to dinner, we allow such a person to indeed skip the meatloaf, and eat only soup followed by cherry pie.

Now imagine that this situation is at a restaurant. There could be many such people who would love to dine on cherry pie, but the chef insists they finish their meatloaf serving first. Sure, there would be people who would agree... but there would be very many, I think, who would decide that they really don't want to eat all the meatloaf they so hate... and they would go looking elsewhere for cherry pie.

I hold that, while my suggestion doesn't make the meal longer, it keeps the customers returning for their next helping of cherry pie. You don't make money by chasing away customers.

-) Covergence with PvP model
A UAX'd player need spend maybe an hour getting the consecutive wins in RA and TA in order to unlock HoH on the Battle Isles.... and s/he also need do it only once. Ever. Then all PvP characters can access Hall of Heroes.

So..... your third point really makes no sense, in terms of comparison here.

-) Secondary sales
You are correct, that I am running on speculation--but even speculation can be educated and reasoned out.

On the contrary, you seem to have a small perspective. I myself have bought extra slots, both to allow more PvE characters as well as to have more than one set PvP character slot. Even more casual players I have known have bought extra in order to have mules. It's not only the hardcore players that will spend $10 USD on storage.

Meanwhile, I somewhat agree with your Paragon example... and yet, I myself have played ele a lot in PvP, and yet I don't have a very advanced ele in PvE. Just the same, I know I could competently run an ele on a high-end Underworld run; indeed, when my wife has had to go AFK, I've often played her characters for her. To a degree you are correct about experience, but there is also a point at which a player who is competent enough should be able to play, with a degree of decency, any profession they want to in a PvE zone.

Most importantly, I know that the guilds I play with wouldn't mind if I rushed a paragon to help with DoA, for example. They know and trust me. The only things holding me back from being able to do such a thing is the requirement to push that paragon through Nightfall.

-) Negative Effects
Thank you for pointing out further examples. These are most important to analyze.

(1)
Burnout is, in fact, what I'm trying to fight. I know I, personally, hate trying to push my necro through Factions, though I would love to play SS in Urgoz or The Deep. The location of the character is COMPLETELY RELEVANT to the enjoyability. Grinding through Jennur's Horde on a necro may or may not bring the same enjoyment to all people as would playing through Urgoz. Some prefer the first, some the other.

People are already experencing burnout... in the form of grinding new characters through a continent. My suggestion is in reaction to that.

(2)
You have a good point here. However, again, I have to ask... should we restrain the freedom of everyone else to enjoy the areas they wish to enjoy, without having to grind through a campaign... in order to cater to those people who only derive pleasure from a game if they know everyone else is having to grind the same way they are?

MagmaRed · Dec 31, 2007, 09:16 PM // 21:16

You want to have access to end game areas with a new character. You want to play as a different class, but you don't want to play the game with it? If you don't enjoy the game, don't play it. At all. Seriously, look at it from a perspective of enjoyment. Why do you want to play the game? What parts of the game do you want to play?

If playing PvE doesn't bring you enjoyment, then don't play it. PvP is always an option. There are definitely parts of the game I don't enjoy, so don't get me wrong. However, they are few, and far between. When I get to those places, I get through them as fast as I can. But to say you don't enjoy playing the game means you shouldn't be playing it.

Red · Dec 31, 2007, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takuna

You say it would be better for ANet's business yet you gave no reason. Are you sure you've thought this through properly? If you make people play through the whole game, it will actually last longer. Allowing people to rush will simply make them disinterested faster.

People have been forced to play through the whole game for two years now. And it's showing in the decreasing activity.

(Because, despite what ANet says about activity, I know personally--as do most of you--how difficult it is to get a real PUG going, or how hard it can be to organize guild/alliance events around what professions other people have available)

Guild Wars is in the declining stage of its life cycle; or at least, it's not growing as it has in the past. It's a legitmate concern, though, that my fundamental argument--that it would increase product life cycle and appear--is flawed. However, please flesh out your reasoning rather than just making statements of "no you're wrong".

By the way.... did you say to me "you gave no reason"?
Did you even read the bloody post?

Red · Dec 31, 2007, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Seriously, look at it from a perspective of enjoyment. Why do you want to play the game? What parts of the game do you want to play?

Ok.

I want to play the game because I like being with my friends and guildies.
We like to do high-end areas like DoA, The Deep, Urgoz, and so forth.

I also enjoy variety, playing different professions.... to say nothing about how sometimes groups NEED a certain profession for the last spot in the build.

What I do NOT enjoy is the grinding process necessary to get my different characters to that point in the game.

Your entire post is saying "if you don't enjoy the grinding, then you're playing the wrong game, because you have to grind to have the opportunity to play in The Deep".

.......

chowmein69 · Dec 31, 2007, 09:23 PM // 21:23

/signed

will be very boring to beat all the quest and missions agains and again.

MercenaryKnight · Dec 31, 2007, 09:28 PM // 21:28

In my opinion this should be a feature in gws 2. If they even have so called mission line. Basically when you beat a game on 1 character, you should be able to at the very least just go through all the missions. So say you beat mission 1, get teleported or get mission 2 town unlocked etc.

It gets boring when you repetitively play the game to get through all the missions. However they are all working on guild wars 2 so I would just like this idea be thought of when they make gws 2.

wu is me · Dec 31, 2007, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

You want to have access to end game areas with a new character. You want to play as a different class, but you don't want to play the game with it? If you don't enjoy the game, don't play it. At all. Seriously, look at it from a perspective of enjoyment. Why do you want to play the game? What parts of the game do you want to play?

If playing PvE doesn't bring you enjoyment, then don't play it. PvP is always an option. There are definitely parts of the game I don't enjoy, so don't get me wrong. However, they are few, and far between. When I get to those places, I get through them as fast as I can. But to say you don't enjoy playing the game means you shouldn't be playing it

Yes, this form of behaviour on behalf of the gamer, when deciding whether or not to play a game, is rationally optimal. If you don't like it, don't play it.

BUT, this is assuming that the game cannot be improved upon.

When there is known to exist a modified version of the game that provides a higher utility to the gamer, than the unmodified version, it would be best for the gamer's utility, if the modification were implemented.

Given that a lot of people want to get run to places for the gameplay rather than prestige, it is my opinion that this IS a utility increasing modification.

lyra_song · Dec 31, 2007, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Player boredom/burnout will happen. Making whole sections of the game skippable will not alleviate the problem. This will simply make those players burnout on the high end areas.

Lets do a flip.

Say that DOA/UW/FOW/DEEP/URGOZ were the beginning areas. And you had to play through it with each character in order to get to the storyline. It would get boring.

The idea doesn't fix anything. Adding the option to skip anything will make a player skip it.

How many players get pissed when you don't skip the cinema?

You put the option to skip and players will skip.

And when you get to the end, thats what they'll get burned out on while the rest of the game has no activity, completely defeating the purpose of your idea.

Your idea wont make GW a better game. It will make it a better customizable avatar chat client.

Takuna · Dec 31, 2007, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red

People have been forced to play through the whole game for two years now. And it's showing in the decreasing activity.

(Because, despite what ANet says about activity, I know personally--as do most of you--how difficult it is to get a real PUG going, or how hard it can be to organize guild/alliance events around what professions other people have available)

Guild Wars is in the declining stage of its life cycle; or at least, it's not growing as it has in the past. It's a legitmate concern, though, that my fundamental argument--that it would increase product life cycle and appear--is flawed. However, please flesh out your reasoning rather than just making statements of "no you're wrong".

By the way.... did you say to me "you gave no reason"?
Did you even read the bloody post?

Actually, I did read the post. Your reason was a kinda "no i'm right" sort of thing.

But meh, I have the answer to the reason for why fewer people are buying GW... Because we already have it. Every time someone buys a campaign, that person is eliminated from the market for that product. They aren't going to buy it again and there's no monthly fee.

By the way.... did you say to me "please flesh out your reasoning"?
Did you even read my blasted post?
Actually, I would have thought it fairly obvious. Making people play for longer means they... don't play for less time... meaning they are interested for longer... meaning they buy things from the online shop or whatever. Allowing people to rush through means they complete things faster and they leave GW faster.

And there was absolutely no reason to be rude. Just because this topic is making you fractious doesn't mean you have to take it out on someone that, from their perspective, make a valid point. I'm not simply trying to waste your time.

KamikazeChicken · Dec 31, 2007, 09:41 PM // 21:41

/signed. I might bother taking more than my main character through Nightfall and EotN if they add it back. It's at least worth adding when GW2 hits.

MagmaRed · Dec 31, 2007, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red

Ok.

I want to play the game because I like being with my friends and guildies.
We like to do high-end areas like DoA, The Deep, Urgoz, and so forth.

I also enjoy variety, playing different professions.... to say nothing about how sometimes groups NEED a certain profession for the last spot in the build.

What I do NOT enjoy is the grinding process necessary to get my different characters to that point in the game.

Your entire post is saying "if you don't enjoy the grinding, then you're playing the wrong game, because you have to grind to have the opportunity to play in The Deep".

.......

No. I never called it grinding, and never will. Because you find the game 'grinding' you obviously don't enjoy it. Go play PvP, or find a new game. Guild Wars is not limited to 1 thing. You have multiple characters per account, multiple classes per character, multiple titles, multiple regions (Tyria, Cantha, Elona), etc. Apparantly you only enjoy a small part of the game. This makes me think you should play a different game.

And since you will probably be thinking I haven't 'grinded' through the game much, I have beaten ALL Tyrian missions with bonus on 12/13 characters, ALL Canthan mission with Masters on 13/13 characters, ALL Elonian missions with Masters on 7/13 characters, and all GW:EN quests/missions on 6/13 characters. Since only 1 of my 2 accounts has Nightfall and GW:EN, you can see the numbers a little better for completion. All 10 classes, 3 classes have a character on each account.

Key point. I enjoyed playing ("grinding") through the games on all my characters.

shmek · Dec 31, 2007, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

/unsigned.

I'd rather actually play the game.

And you are more then free to do so.... What's your issue with others who like this ability?